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WelshOspreyJuly 08, 2016 12:23 pm
They've got one of the best sets of forwards in the game when it comes to set piece, but maybe lacking a few cutting edge backs to be a top 10 contender. I'd definitely like to see them get a chance in the six nations. They should have a test series against Italy or something to enhance their claims.
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quazarJuly 08, 2016 10:15 pm
A recent successful tour on pacific islands is also worth mentioning. Georgia drew one match against Samoa and won matches against Tonga and Fiji. Quite impressive results if we take into account the fact that even some tier 1 nations have to fight tooth and nail in order to achieve victory on pacific islands.
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finedisregardJuly 09, 2016 3:24 pm
Good points! I'd like to see Scotland or Italy tour the South Pacific undefeated.
What I'd really like is to see the Georgians get some warm up games with 6N sides before they tour. They might raise some eyebrows.
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finedisregardJuly 09, 2016 3:07 am
Georgia is really doing something and without much help monetarily.
As long as there are three Laris to the Euro I think that Italy will remain in the 6N. Georgia is better than Italy but it it's money that matters.
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DrGJuly 09, 2016 5:53 pm
Of course money matters - Pro rugby is more a business nowadays than it is a sport. Just look at any international match and it'll tell you exactly that.
Photographers and cameramen all around the pitch - their equipment worth a fortune.
Cameras mounted on tracks to race up and down the pitch - again a fortune.
Overhead cable cameras giving you a further angle - fortune.
Officials - 1 referee, 2 touch judges, a fourth official supposedly sitting in an expensive tv laden truck outside watching every angle, all with microphones all with contact etc.
Commentators sitting their with their mics, watching the game and telling the thousands of viewers at home whats happening... I'd also rightly or wrongly assume there are other commentators from other countries???
Then you have stadium staff - groundsmen, security, ticket collectors, vendors of food and drink, most of the big stadiums have a merchandise shop filled with expensive host team gear as well as the retail staff milling about flogging it. Bloke connected to a big speaker telling the crowd the substitutions and the like.
Lighting, firework displays, pre game shows, half time shows....
We've not even blown the starting whistle yet or tossed a bloody coin and already the budget is astronomical!
World rugby is better off developing a new competition for these lower tiered international teams and pushing for fixtures with the 6N teams and the rugby championship teams and then these smaller teams will have their own revenue generating competitions which will fuel all their own rugby development and then they'll get to make their own statements every 4 years in the RWC or in any friendly internationals...
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VercingetorixJuly 09, 2016 7:03 am
Georgia progressed very well during last years but they suffer in depth. They may win a game against likes of Italy or Scotland but if few players will miss they'll be easy pray. This issue may be solved in future seasons due to good results at junior levels...but Georgia still have to obtain their first win versus a Tier 1 nation.
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georgianJuly 09, 2016 4:18 pm
we lacked several leading players in Pacific but we won
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kripJuly 09, 2016 8:52 am
I am quite sick of this discussion already. People just don't get it... Georgia does not belong to the 6N. And it's not about the rugby. It's that simple!
1. 6N is not just a sporting event, but a business. It exist because there is the economical infrastructure behind to support it. In the Western European countries where 6N happens there is audience that fills the stadiums and can afford to pay good money for tickets, merchandise (not to mention TV rights) and to generate revenue for the organizers and the teams. How many French, Italian or UK citizens will travel to Georgie to watch the games? What will be the price of the tickets in Georgia? What revenue will the Lelos as a brand produce in the 6N? The answer of all these questions is - not much.
2. Six Nations is also about tradition. It was always been the tournament of the Western European nations, the ones that share centuries of history between, where so much emotional energy is generated behind the scenes. Every game is a cultural rivalry: Le Crunch, Welsh Dragons against the Pomms, English oppressors against the Brave Scots, the French against the Italian Fascist etc. What will Georgia bring to that? Again - not much. We can argue if Georgia is even in Europe at the first place.
I really like the Lelos... I respect them tremendously for their culture and rugby skills. But they just don't belong to 6N. Sure they can probably be 50/50 against France, Italy. They can possibly sneak a win of every other nation besides England at this point. But, so what?
It will be much better for European Rugby to invest in ENC and to promote that championship forward, to help the emerging nations and provide them with the resources 6N teams have. Just look at Romania, Russia, Portugal, Spain... they play some amazing rugby. These nations deserve to play rugby in front of full stadiums, the games should be broadcasted live on TV. Why not focusing on that instead of pointless moves like getting Georgia to 6N.
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finedisregardJuly 09, 2016 3:17 pm
The French against Italian fascists? Right.
Italy has no business being in the 6N. Italy is a very recent and under-performing member of the 6 Nations. They joined an 106 year old tournament just 16 years ago and have never distinguished themselves. In 16 years Italy has taken the wooden spoon 11 times and never finished higher than 4th out of 6.
Italy does not have a history of strong rugby clubs or attendance at matches. Italy has suited up about 5 world class players ever and to my knowledge they all learned their rugby in Argentina.
If you want to talk the Euro vs the Lari, the nightlife culture of Rome vs Tblisi, or "brands" then that is one thing. If money and branding is the issue why not accept Germany into the 6N?
If you want the best countries in Europe to play against each other then goodbye Italy, hello Georgia. Is the 6N a closed off boys club or competition?
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DrGJuly 09, 2016 5:43 pm
Fine disregard... Do you want a yoyo competition? You've seen how well Italy has developed - or not developed greatly in the competition...
What happens if Georgia joins, gets smashed, Italy joins, get smashed, Georgia joins, get smashed.... and so on... boring and useless for each countries development.
Why all this rush to include other nations in other competitions, in fact, why has Argentina joined the tri nations??? Samoa, Fiji, Tonga etc have been a force many years before Argentina decided to get involved, why weren't they given their shot?
I'm all for developing these other nations, but these competitions have been around many many years and within those competitions comes bragging rights and the excitement of undoing the loss in a previous year, or continuing the win.
If anything, why is everyone so focused on Georgia. If you look at the rankings, Argentina sits just above Fiji, if Argentina come in last place in the next rugby championship, shouldn't Fiji be promoted and Arg relegated?
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finedisregardJuly 09, 2016 8:51 pm
If by "yo-yo competition" you mean the best playing the best in the region then, yes that is the very point. I think that the 6N wooden spoon should be relegated and the European Nations Cup Champ should ascend.
Tradition in the 5N lost it's argument once they let the Italians in. There is no grand tradition of Italian rugby.
Letting the Argies into the Tri-Nations was the right move for similar reasons. Argentina has beaten Australia and (due to their inclusion) South Africa too.
The reason that Georgia is the focus (Romania was for a period too in the 80's) is because they have made some serious waves and produced outstanding players with very little money, infrastructure, or regular competition. Again, look at the results from the Pacific Tour. Georgia has won the 6N B or come in second every year for the past 10 years. They're knocking on the door. What do they have to do to be let in?
Levan below is 100% correct. Next time England or Ireland really want a warm up before they leave Europe come to Tblisi. See what happens.
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DrGJuly 09, 2016 9:13 pm
You missed the point about Argentina. My point is WHY Argentina and not Samoa? or Tonga, or Fiji? All nations that have a massive proud rugby history and have been fighting for recognition in 15's for many many years whilst having tiny populations.... so why not them?
And with yo yo competition, I'm talking about no team being able to maintain a continuing growth. If Italy gets relegated then their game will suffer, interest will lessen and their sport will suffer, Georgia may come in and perhaps lose overall...and if Italy is really as poor as everyone state then the tournaments Georgia are part of will then have a "best of a bad bunch" feel, so one team that is not as good as Georgia will get promoted and Georgia will get demoted.... then the next year, it will swap and so on, so forth...
I don't understand why people feel the need to add a relegation set up to the 6N which has been a home nation tournament since it's conception... that is what makes the tournament as massive as it is... I don't understand why it shouldn't be it's own "exclusive tournament"... why didn't the tri nations just introduce relegation and remove the lowest team and replace it with Arg each time?
Or are we suggesting that perhaps because italy was last to join, they should be the only team to be relegated?
As said before, money should be invested to grow their own tournaments with bragging rights all coming out during the autumn/summer internationals and world cups...
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georgianJuly 09, 2016 4:32 pm
1. it is about rugby, it is not about business;
2. if it is about business, then Georgia has Association Agreement with Europe that includes Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement, thus EU has to support Georgia regarding this direction;
3. if it is about Rugby, Georgia has won to Romania, Russia, Portugal, Spain, etc. thus our rugby is more developed and our prospects are more well-seen, with including the fact that our U-20 won to U-20 Italy;
4. Georgia is among oldest European Countries; we are the third country that adopted Christianity as official state religion, in the begining of 4th century...
5. if it is about tradition, then our ancestors played rugby (in Georgian Lelo) centuries and centuries ago...
6. we will go stronger and stronger, so useless comments won't worsen our path...
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kripJuly 10, 2016 7:23 am
Guys, I respect all of that. But you Georgians here are extremely biased. It's not worth having a discussion, as you are not able to look on the topic from a clear perspective.
Also, I am not Italian, but your bashing on Italy and Italian rugby is not cool. At all. Is this your rugby spirit? Undermining the success and the hard work of another nation, of people that love rugby, just like you. Not cool. Are you jealous, do you think it's unfair? Ok, but saying bullshit and lamenting your 101 super Georgia arguments like a radio is not the right way.
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DrGJuly 09, 2016 5:33 pm
I agree with Krip in the sense that the 6N should not start introducing qualifying rules. If Georgia are to be allowed in, then it should be called the 7N.
Rugby teams go through their ups and downs, and I know what ifs are incredibly blurry, however what if it is a qualifying tournament, who else wants a look in? 6 Nations WAS the 5N, which was England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and France.... 5N WAS the home nations, which for the purpose of this argument is the England, Ireland, Wales and Scotland... It could even be argued that it might have been a good platform for the Barbarians to be formed off - seeing how the individuals in those nations performed etc (at a long reach anyway)... So sure it's grown, but it's never become a qualifying tournament...
Anyway, back to the what if's... if Georgia want in, what about other "tier 1.5" nations... Can any of the fans of the teams in the current 6N imagine if their team was not in the competition? 6N consisting of Poland, Georgia, Germany, Romania, USA and Canada (idk, I made it up..)... Calcutta cup will gather dust until Eng v Sco have a 'friendly'... the Celts as a group of teams will grow weary not being able to have a decent crack at the English... The French and the English won't be able to get their annual crunch...
I personally think the argument that it will grow rugby globally is a farce, I believe it will cause massive destruction and disruption. Perhaps it's good when Tier 1 nations get a shake up, however removing them from competitions is detrimental to their own continued development.
And then as I said, if it's not a qualifying tournament, who will be next to join? Georgia? Then Romania? Then who else? All of a sudden you'll have a effectively a European RWC...
I think some people are right in suggesting that Georgia and other nations have their own competition which the IRB can invest in and promote. Then who knows? Winners of 6N vs ___ or interim tours etc...
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LEVANJuly 09, 2016 8:13 pm
Im reading some comments and just getting the filling of unlivable arrogance and maybe fear, fear that some tiny nation will kick their a....s.
first argument : it is not lucrative - bullshit, the UEFA Supercup thickets (2015) have been sold in 2 hours ! we fill the stadiums even against Russia and Romania (about 40-55 T) and can you imagine what will happen when it comes to England, France or etc.?! Geo Gov. proposed even financial guarantees for the next 5 years if something will go wrong.
argument busted
second argument: this is a tradition and so on so on bla bla bla - Italy? 16 years tradition.... ok the apple tree in my garden is older :/
third argument: let Georgia play against other countries they are good also - listen folks WE are Winning this so called six nation "B" already with Team A, no joke. ! sorry but Spain or even Russia are not the same level at all.
fourth argument: Georgia has a short bench : sorry but our recent Oceania tour we made without Gorgodze and 2 other main props playing in Top 14 and in the long run U20 is performing also Ok so what now?
any other arguments? any other feasibility studies
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DrGJuly 09, 2016 9:20 pm
6 Nations is about tradition, so if Scotland is kicked out, Calcutta cup gets pushed aside... England France is a massively anticipated match with the historic rivalry between the two countries stemming far beyond rugby - ofcourse this is not exactly a big deal, but for the French to beat England it's wonderful, and for the English to beat the French again is great...
Same applies for Celtic teams against England etc...
So yeh, Italy doesn't have a huge about of history or tradition - other than being on the wrong side during the war - for some of it.... so I guess you're suggesting that the rest of the tradition be considered and only Italy relegated? OR perhaps we ignore all that tradition?
UEFA supercup? Um, wendyball? How is that even applicable, unless you're suggesting Georgia are just extremely passionate and will support regardless of their understand of the game (admirable and not unlike other countries)... But regardless, fan travel to Georgia? I see it less likely than other fan travel. Perhaps Georgia will be lucrative, but as lucrative as the current nations? I don't think so.
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VercingetorixJuly 10, 2016 8:03 am
Some of your arguments shows your lack of knowledge about rugby and its ethos.
You keep compare Georgia you Italy but you forgot that Italians won 3 times vs France, once vs Ireland and once vs Scotland when they joined 5N. Georgia has yet to win against Tier 1.
Also the performances from last years aren't that great. Six nation B wins except against Romania are quite average performances, nothing to rate there and Oaks traveled at Tbilisi with an experimental squad. Winning in Islands is hardly a benchmark since all their unions are in dissaray. Fiji was severely depleted (e.g. Nadolo, Nakarawa) and only Tonga may be considered as a full test squad. Good win, but other T2 won against them and they are lacking form severely.
Lelos are still far of being T1. They produce players but only props are in numbers, in other positions they lack depth.
You are damaging the reputation of your rugby with such attitude, this is not soccer.
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GuyJuly 10, 2016 10:19 am
I have to agree with DrG (and others): 6 Nations is about a) history and b) business.
a) Scotland vs England seems to be the oldest international rugby fixture. The Calcutta Cup layed the foundations for the development of the Home Nations, 5 Nations and 6 Nations. No chance in hell the organisation or either England or Scotland are going to risk one of both teams getting relegated. Or any of the home nattions or France. A lot of people seem to be okay with Georgia swapping places with Italy but that's quite hypocritical to me.
b) Any new country added to the tournament must have a positive influence on the revenue of the tournament as a business. I guess that's why Argentina was let into the Rugby Championship (huge potential market) and not one of the pacific nations. The same applies here: if the organizers see possibillities of growing revenue, new nations will be added. But then to me it seems more likely to become the 7 Nations instead of the introduction of a promotion/relegation system.
With al do respect: I love the way Georgia are developping as a rugby nation but and I guess Georgians are a very, very proud people. But there is no reason to act all superior to other nations that have not been developping as well.
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